Ryzen versus Xeon E5

[nickn]

Hello, 

I am excited to finally be building an Unraid server.  I have built many PCs before, both for families and friends and professionally. The planned uses for the server are:

1. Plex server in a Docker (Supporting up to 2 simultaneous clients, and recording 2-4 simultaneous OTA TV channels via Plex DVR or HdHomerun DVR)
2. Windows 10 VM for occasional use (will not play games, just for office software, web browsing, and working from home)
3. Ubuntu VM in the future
4. Future NVR (security camera) recording for cameras around my house
5. Other dockers for file synchonization and backup (such as resilio/bittorrent sync)
6. Occasional ripping and transcoding using Handbrake for DVD/Blu-Ray backup

 

I would like to build the system one of two ways, based on my budget:

• Ryzen 5 1600 / Ryzen 7 1700, 16 GB DDR4, M.2 PCIe SSD as cache drive/appdata/vm storage
• Used Xeon E5 V2 with 6-10 cores, 16 GB DDR3 ECC, SATA3 SSD as cache drive/appdata/vm storage

 

Given these two options, which would you choose and why?  I like the more modern hardware that Ryzen and associated motherboards offer, including DDR4 and the faster M.2 PCIe SSD interface. On the other hand, I like the additional cores that some Xeon CPUs offer, and the reliability and cost-effectiveness of using used DDR3 ECC RAM on a Xeon platform.

 

Thanks for your advice!

[tdallen]

Hi -

 

Have you read the main Ryzen thread ?  It's also worth searching the forums for "Ryzen".  It's a very interesting new platform, but support for it is not yet mature and people are working through several issues.

[nickn]

Thanks.  I have been following that thread.

[SSD]

The big issue with Ryzen is with GPU pass through. Is that important to you? I am running a Windows VM on a Haswel Xeon, passing through the GPU and USB and am very happy with the setup. No one would ever know it is running virtual. It has a 100% bare metal feel. If you don't pass through, you'd need another machine to interact with to use the VM. You'd be typing on that machine's keyboard, using that machine's mouse, and seeing that machine's screen. So you really wouldn't have replaced / eliminated a workstation, just introduced a level of indirection. And despite some pretty nifty remote access software like SplashTop Desktop and NoMachine, you'll still be giving up quite a lot in terms of usability and convenience. Personally I think GPU passthrough is the gem that makes virtualization useful to most people, and would be hard pressed to recommend Ryzen until (unless?) that issue is resolved.

 

Now we do have users that understand all this, but still want the power / core count afforded by Ryzen. They are either gambling that it will be resolved, or their use cases don't require the passthrough. If one is in the gambler camp, i'd be very cautious. This problem has been known for at least months and no solution has been found. I was optimistic that the engineers would find a solution, but that optimism has faded to pessimism. Compare this to the Intel hyperthreading issue with Sky Lake and Kaby Lake CPU s. Granted it took a very long time for the problem to be found and isolated, but once all that happened it took only a few weeks before Intel had a fix and BIOS updates started coming out to address the problem. 

 

So given the time that has elapsed, and the considerable brains that I imagine worked the problem at AMD, only a hardware solution (i.e., a different CPU) is gonna solve this. This puts AMD in a pickle. If they admit a flaw and come out with a new CPU, existing users will be pissed and expect a replacement - an expensive option with bad PR. Or just ignore the problem and the small group of disgruntled users, never saying it can't be fixed and thus leaving hope in place to quiet the already small voices. I'll bet less than 5% of the market, maybe more like 0.05%, know about or care about GPU passthrough. And AMD is doing just fine financially. So I expect continued silence from AMD unless someone over there has a eureka moment after slipping on the toilet.

 

This all is 100% my opinion and conjecture.

[Tuftuf]

Based on what I've been reading the NPT with KVM issue is years old rather than months old. Also based on what I've been reading this is limited to KVM, the performance loss is not seen on Xen. I'm still hoping it will be fixed due to sheer fact that AMD has done a good job with these CPU's and people want to use them.

 

My system is in my sig, the main use case I had was Plex, Unifi, a Windows VM for Blueiris (no passthrough) and ability to run a few more linux vm's to test certain work related use cases out. 

 

For that Ryzen has been great. No real complaints.

 

As for GPU passthrough, yes it's a bit of a pain but it has to be stated the issue is most often seen during gaming, in fact, I don't notice it doing general day to day things on the desktop.

Yes on WOW it has a performance impact, causes stalls every so often. For awhile you think its playing perfect and then everything freezes.

Overwatch, with cpu pinning to the last 4+4 cores and limiting unraid to the first 4+4 cores only. I'm getting 60+ FPS most of the time on an old 670 and the game is almost perfect. A few stalls and slowdowns but nothing compared to WOW 

Quake Champions, Similar to overwatch it feels almost perfect and then something happens to remind you its not. But again not very often and I've seen been able to play but its not bare metal.

 

I also have a second GPU passed through to another WindowsVM (named GPU2!) that is sharing cores with Unraid and my other half plays Red Alert 3 on it and that has shown no issues at all.

 

In your initial post you already stated gaming was not a goal, for that use case GPU pass through does work OK. It really depends on what your expectations are.

So with all the issue still present, I am run TVHeadend, TVHProxy, Plex DVR, Plex Live, PlexRequests with automated downloads etc etc, a windows VM without GPU and still run two windows VM's with GPU's. I'm starting to ask a little too much of it and I can tell you that in its current state transcoding HEVC in plex is a bit too much to ask.

 

I may build a bare metal gaming rig or I'm also looking some HP workstations on ebay, as I see some with high core counts and reasonable price(TBC).

Edited August 30, 2017 by Tuftuf
correction

[nickn]

Thanks @Tuftuf and @bjp999 for your responses.  Yes, with my lifestyle as it is right now, I don't have a lot of time to play games.  I have five young kids, and many projects around the house including finishing our basement into an apartment.  Mostly I'll be using a Windows VM to run remote access software to work from home, so not much gaming or intense GPU usage.  I'm still weighing my options, considering a Ryzen 5 1600 system, or something Xeon E5 V2 based (1650v2 or 2670v2) with a single-socket motherboard.

[isvein]

On 29/08/2017 at 2:36 PM, SSD said:

The big issue with Ryzen is with GPU pass through. Is that important to you? I am running a Windows VM on a Haswel Xeon, passing through the GPU and USB and am very happy with the setup. No one would ever know it is running virtual. It has a 100% bare metal feel. If you don't pass through, you'd need another machine to interact with to use the VM. You'd be typing on that machine's keyboard, using that machine's mouse, and seeing that machine's screen. So you really wouldn't have replaced / eliminated a workstation, just introduced a level of indirection. And despite some pretty nifty remote access software like SplashTop Desktop and NoMachine, you'll still be giving up quite a lot in terms of usability and convenience. Personally I think GPU passthrough is the gem that makes virtualization useful to most people, and would be hard pressed to recommend Ryzen until (unless?) that issue is resolved.

 

Now we do have users that understand all this, but still want the power / core count afforded by Ryzen. They are either gambling that it will be resolved, or their use cases don't require the passthrough. If one is in the gambler camp, i'd be very cautious. This problem has been known for at least months and no solution has been found. I was optimistic that the engineers would find a solution, but that optimism has faded to pessimism. Compare this to the Intel hyperthreading issue with Sky Lake and Kaby Lake CPU s. Granted it took a very long time for the problem to be found and isolated, but once all that happened it took only a few weeks before Intel had a fix and BIOS updates started coming out to address the problem. 

 

So given the time that has elapsed, and the considerable brains that I imagine worked the problem at AMD, only a hardware solution (i.e., a different CPU) is gonna solve this. This puts AMD in a pickle. If they admit a flaw and come out with a new CPU, existing users will be pissed and expect a replacement - an expensive option with bad PR. Or just ignore the problem and the small group of disgruntled users, never saying it can't be fixed and thus leaving hope in place to quiet the already small voices. I'll bet less than 5% of the market, maybe more like 0.05%, know about or care about GPU passthrough. And AMD is doing just fine financially. So I expect continued silence from AMD unless someone over there has a eureka moment after slipping on the toilet.

 

This all is 100% my opinion and conjecture.

So if I dont plan to use passthrough or vm at all on an unraid box, Ryzen will be good to go?