New to UnRaid - need some parts advice

[bsm2k1]

I am thinking about building my 1st UnRaid server for home use and am looking for some hardware guidance!

Currently I have a pretty old file server setup running WHS2011: ZOTAC NM10-DTX motherboard, 4GB ram in a Lian Li PC-Q08 case, along with a mix of fairly small 1/2TB hard drives.
 

Usage

Its main use at the moment is running Sonarr, Sabnzbd and CouchPotato as well as serving files to 2 Kodi front ends (Shield TVs x 2). This requirement isn't likely to change.
It would be nice to able to backup other PCs too though.

 

I'm struggling to know what hardware I need to look for, what power I will need etc. I would like to keep to a fairly small case (could I even re-use the current case?). Ideally I would like space for 6 storage drives (5 plus parity), so maybe I need to upgrade to a micro atx setup - not sure.

 

I had thought of going for a Pentium G4600 for the processor and building around this - would this be enough for my needs?
Alternatively I'm open to the idea of buying second hand if that might be a better option (parts or prebuild server).

 

Any help would be hugely appreciated!

[tdallen]

Hello and welcome -

 

A Pentium G4600 would be plenty of CPU for unRAID and the Dockers you mention.  4GB would be enough, but I'd start with 8GB of RAM.  You could reuse the case and power supply.  Folks don't usually run Dockers off the array, though - an SSD based cache drive is preferred for that.  I like the mini-ITX form factor - have you looked at the current generation of 8tb drives?  They are the best price per TB right now and would let you easily stay in a small case with fewer SATA ports, etc.

[bsm2k1]

13 hours ago, tdallen said:

Hello and welcome -

 

A Pentium G4600 would be plenty of CPU for unRAID and the Dockers you mention.  4GB would be enough, but I'd start with 8GB of RAM.  You could reuse the case and power supply.  Folks don't usually run Dockers off the array, though - an SSD based cache drive is preferred for that.  I like the mini-ITX form factor - have you looked at the current generation of 8tb drives?  They are the best price per TB right now and would let you easily stay in a small case with fewer SATA ports, etc.

 

Thanks for the reply and welcome! 

That's good to know the Pentium would be good enough for my needs. I had planned to go with 8GB of RAM as I figured 4GB would be a bit too little these days.

I'm glad you think I could reuse the case - I too like the form factor (though can be a bit tricky to work on at times). My only issue now would be finding a motherboard that's suitable for Unraid and has enough sata ports for the possible hard drives. The Lian-Li case has room for 6 x 3.5", 1 x 2.5" and 1 x 5.25". Based off that I would need potentially 8 sata ports on the motherboard. Alternatively I've read about adding a Raid card - any suggestions on a route to take?

 

As far as hard drives go - my hope was to buy a decent size parity drive to future proof myself, and use my existing old hard drives for now as the data drives and slowly replace them over time. What's the best brand to look for at the moment? Most of my drives are 2TB WD Reds at the moment. Also what size cache drive would you recommend for my needs? I have a 120GB Samsung Evo spare (or possibly a 250GB) I could use if that was big enough.

 

Cost is a factor for the build so thats why I'm hoping I can reuse parts where possible 

 

I need to read up some more on Dockers and cache drives I think to get a better understanding of how that will work...

Edited August 9, 2017 by bsm2k1

[SSD]

1 hour ago, bsm2k1 said:

 

Thanks for the reply and welcome! 

That's good to know the Pentium would be good enough for my needs. I had planned to go with 8GB of RAM as I figured 4GB would be a bit too little these days.

I'm glad you think I could reuse the case - I too like the form factor (though can be a bit tricky to work on at times).

 

By far the most common problem people have with their servers, and we typically see several of them each week, is drives dropping offline due to cabling issues. This often happens while replacing a failed disk or upsizing a disk. To help avoid such problems, I highly recommend hot-swap style drive cages, like the SuperMicro CSE-M35T-1B or even Rosewill 4in3 cases.

 

There is nothing wrong with your case, but lacking the ability to install the hot-swap cages means that every time you open the case to swap a drive, you are risking touching an unrelated cable and creating an intermittent connection that will cause another drive to drop soon after. If you only have 3 drives, maybe not an issue. But each additional drive increases the cabling rats nest and exposes you to risk.

 

Quote

My only issue now would be finding a motherboard that's suitable for Unraid and has enough sata ports for the possible hard drives. The Lian-Li case has room for 6 x 3.5", 1 x 2.5" and 1 x 5.25". Based off that I would need potentially 8 sata ports on the motherboard. Alternatively I've read about adding a Raid card - any suggestions on a route to take?

 

6-8 port motherboards are plentiful. If you need an extra controller, look at a LSI SAS9201-8i, available used on eBay for <$50. It needs an x8 slot.

 

Quote

As far as hard drives go - my hope was to buy a decent size parity drive to future proof myself, and use my existing old hard drives for now as the data drives and slowly replace them over time. What's the best brand to look for at the moment? Most of my drives are 2TB WD Reds at the moment.

 

I understand the strategy, and if the 2T drives are in good shape (need to look carefully at all the SMART reports), not a problem.

 

I'd be looking at one of two strategies:

 

NEW DRIVE: Buy 2-3 8T drives (8T-16T usable) and leave the smaller 2T drives behind (use for backups). You'd be within the 3 limit I recommended before needing drive cages and stick with your existing case for now.

 

REUSE DRIVES: The other is to stick with the 2T drives, including a 2T for parity. "Futureproofing" is overrated. Having an 8T parity with 2T drives is a waste of space. Instead, buy the drive cage. With it, upsizing and replacing disks going forward will be a piece of cake. You might look at an Antec 900 (or similar) as a good case to grow into. It can handle 3 of the cages and 12-15 hot-swap drives. I actually like this strategy better, as you'd be well positioned for drive growth.

 

Quote

Also what size cache drive would you recommend for my needs? I have a 120GB Samsung Evo spare (or possibly a 250GB) I could use if that was big enough.

 

120G is usable, but a little tight. I'd have no problem starting there if you already own. 250G is a better size if buying new. 500G is better if planning VMs.

 

Quote

Cost is a factor for the build so thats why I'm hoping I can reuse parts where possible 

 

I need to read up some more on Dockers and cache drives I think to get a better understanding of how that will work...

 

Good luck with your build!

[bsm2k1]

20 minutes ago, bjp999 said:

By far the most common problem people have with their servers, and we typically see several of them each week, is drives dropping offline due to cabling issues. This often happens while replacing a failed disk or upsizing a disk. To help avoid such problems, I highly recommend hot-swap style drive cages, like the SuperMicro CSE-M35T-1B or even Rosewill 4in3 cases.

 

There is nothing wrong with your case, but lacking the ability to install the hot-swap cages means that every time you open the case to swap a drive, you are risking touching an unrelated cable and creating an intermittent connection that will cause another drive to drop soon after. If you only have 3 drives, maybe not an issue. But each additional drive increases the cabling rats nest and exposes you to risk.

 

Thanks - that's some good advise. Realistically I'm never going to be in a position where I can see myself needing more than 3-4 8TB drives worth of space, so I guess having room for 6 drives total would be fine and I do like the idea of using cages. Would there be a suitable micro ATX sized case where I could fit in a few cages? Would like to avoid a large full ATX tower if possible. Also micro ATX boards seem to be cheaper than mini ITX (current case size) so another plus 

 

20 minutes ago, bjp999 said:

NEW DRIVE: Buy 2-3 8T drives (8T-16T usable) and leave the smaller 2T drives behind (use for backups). You'd be within the 3 limit I recommended before needing drive cages and stick with your existing case for now.

 

REUSE DRIVES: The other is to stick with the 2T drives, including a 2T for parity. "Futureproofing" is overrated. Having an 8T parity with 2T drives is a waste of space. Instead, buy the drive cage. With it, upsizing and replacing disks going forward will be a piece of cake. You might look at an Antec 900 (or similar) as a good case to grow into. It can handle 3 of the cages and 12-15 hot-swap drives. I actually like this strategy better, as you'd be well positioned for drive growth.

 

I have about 7TB of data at the moment - I'd ideally like to get to about double that, but I think that's a fairly small size requirement compared to what I've seen around here, and especially compared to when I built my existing server. I could buy 2 x 8TB drives and that would actually upgrade me fully, or 3 x 4TB drives as they are cheaper per drive (though more expensive per TB). I only really want enough storage to cover my current usage plus room to grow it going forward.

 

As a slight curveball, what would I need to upgrade in order to be able to run some VMs? I quite like the idea of a Windows 10 VM for a bit of light to medium gaming. My laptop is on the way out so might be an alternative to buying a new laptop. I'm guessing I would need to go the route of a quad core CPU for this though? The Ryzen CPUs look nice price wise, though I see there are (were?) some issues when using with Unraid.

 

I had also considered looking for 2nd hand options on ebay, but not sure what would be suitable.I did see someone suggest something like this but dont know if I would be better off buying new.

 

Thank you for your advise! 

Edited August 9, 2017 by bsm2k1

[SSD]

This is the problem with budget builds - the siren call of new features and capabilities! I'd be hard pressed to recommend a 2 core CPU now. I'd steer clear of Ryzen right now - there are issues particularly with pass through. Maybe they'll get it all worked out soon, but I can't really recommend now.

 

If you are looking at VMs and passthrough (believe me you'll want passthrough if looking at a Windows 10 VM), you'll want a 4-core machine, and probably 16G-32G of RAM. You'll need a motherboard that has at least two x8+ expansion slots (one for GPU and one for HBA).

 

I am not an expert at the offerings. You need a chip that supports VT-d. I think that largely pushes you to i5+ (i5,  i7, or possibly Xeon E3 CPUs).

 

I like that Antec 900 case I mentioned. Haven't done research on anything smaller. 15 drives may be overkill for you, but you never know. See pic below. I have one of these as my backup server, and a very similar case that is even taller that holds 20 drives as my main server.

 

Here is one on eBay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antec-Nine-Hundred-Black-Steel-ATX-Mid-Tower-Gaming-Computer-Case-USED-/282586360149

 

~$75 delivered.

 

[tdallen]

Going mini-ITX does limit your choices for motherboards, but there are some good ones.  I tend to like motherboards from Asus, ASRock, and Supermicro.  Here are some options:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813599009

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813599005

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132820

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182990

 

Popular drives at the moment include WD Red, HGST, Seagate Iron Wolf and Segate Archive.  If you want to stay in the mini-ITX format, buy the largest drives you can justify because you can only fit a handful into the smaller form factor.

 

I do endorse @bjp999's recommendation for externally accessible hot swap bays, but another option is the Lian Li PC-Q25 which as has 5 internally accessible hot swap bays if you are interested in staying with the mini-ITX form factor.  Also check out the Silverstone DS380 with externally accessible hot swap bays - it has some cooling issues but people have worked around them.

 

I'd go with a four core, hyperthreaded CPU if you want to get into VMs - i.e. a Core i7 or Xeon E3.  Support for Ryzen is stabilizing, but not yet fully stable - be prepared for bleeding edge if you go there.

[bsm2k1]

2 hours ago, bjp999 said:

This is the problem with budget builds - the siren call of new features and capabilities! I'd be hard pressed to recommend a 2 core CPU now. I'd steer clear of Ryzen right now - there are issues particularly with pass through. Maybe they'll get it all worked out soon, but I can't really recommend now.

 

I know! The temptation to go overboard is too high. I guess I just need to setup something that can be expanded in the future without redoing most of it.
 

2 hours ago, bjp999 said:

I like that Antec 900 case I mentioned. Haven't done research on anything smaller. 15 drives may be overkill for you, but you never know. See pic below. I have one of these as my backup server, and a very similar case that is even taller that holds 20 drives as my main server.

 

I should of mentioned I'm from the UK Those hot swap bays dont seem to be available in this country (not easily anyway) either. The case looks good though, just not sure I have enough room for it. Quite the look of the Node 804 if I was going for a larger build, but that would mean no hot swap bays.

 

2 hours ago, tdallen said:

Going mini-ITX does limit your choices for motherboards, but there are some good ones.  I tend to like motherboards from Asus, ASRock, and Supermicro.  Here are some options:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813599009

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813599005

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132820

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182990

 

Amazing thank you! Will take a look over these. Its going to be a balancing act of working out whats more cost effective - going with a smaller ITX build or jumping up to Micro ATX.

 

2 hours ago, tdallen said:

 

I do endorse @bjp999's recommendation for externally accessible hot swap bays, but another option is the Lian Li PC-Q25 which as has 5 internally accessible hot swap bays if you are interested in staying with the mini-ITX form factor.  Also check out the Silverstone DS380 with externally accessible hot swap bays - it has some cooling issues but people have worked around them.

Those cases both look really interesting, and a definate step up from my current case. I'd probably lean towards the Lian Li as I'd worry about the cooling in the other like you mentioned, but thats a pretty cool case.

 

I'm wondering if I could buy a generation or two old CPU/motherboard as a way to save a bit. There's lots of Xeons on ebay - what would I be looking for if I wanted to run a Windows 10 VM for gaming? I used to build PCs etc a lot, but am a bit out of touch at the moment!

[tdallen]

There are some great deals used, but you're heading into different territory.  First, the question isn't so much about "what should I look for" but "what can I find".  All deals are local, but used parts especially so.  So, what are you seeing that interests you?  Check the capabilities of the chip on Intel Ark and the performance on Passmark.  The next question is the motherboard - are you getting it bundled with the CPU, or are you buying one?  If buying, what is still available that will take your prior generation chip?  You may be less in control of the the size and features of the motherboard, and will have to pick a case that fits the motherboard you found.  You might actually see if you can get a bundle or a whole system if you go this route - motherboard, CPU, Cooler and RAM or a whole box.

[SSD]

20 hours ago, bsm2k1 said:

 

I know! The temptation to go overboard is too high. I guess I just need to setup something that can be expanded in the future without redoing most of it.
 

 

I should of mentioned I'm from the UK Those hot swap bays dont seem to be available in this country (not easily anyway) either. The case looks good though, just not sure I have enough room for it. Quite the look of the Node 804 if I was going for a larger build, but that would mean no hot swap bays.

 

 

Amazing thank you! Will take a look over these. Its going to be a balancing act of working out whats more cost effective - going with a smaller ITX build or jumping up to Micro ATX.

 

Those cases both look really interesting, and a definate step up from my current case. I'd probably lean towards the Lian Li as I'd worry about the cooling in the other like you mentioned, but thats a pretty cool case.

 

I'm wondering if I could buy a generation or two old CPU/motherboard as a way to save a bit. There's lots of Xeons on ebay - what would I be looking for if I wanted to run a Windows 10 VM for gaming? I used to build PCs etc a lot, but am a bit out of touch at the moment!

 

With no competition in the marketplace, Intel has largely stagnated in terms of performance improvements. So buying used is not a huge penalty.

 

Here is a sample I found with a few minutes on eBay. Not saying this is the best deal, or that this is the configuration you should buy, but it is a configuration similar to what I have. It includes an ASROCK uATX MB, Hasswell 3.5GHz CPU (4 cores/8 threads), and 16/32G RAM for about $400. You's might need to add a HSF.

 

(You'd need to double check the memory. This is the one I have, but it is not on the QVL for this board. You'd likely find a similar pricing on one that is)

 

$215 - INTEL XEON E3-1270v3 HASWELL CPU PROCESSOR: SOCKET 1150 3.5GHz SERVER SR151 FAST
http://www.ebay.com/itm/INTEL-XEON-E3-1270v3-HASWELL-CPU-PROCESSOR-SOCKET-1150-3-5GHz-SERVER-SR151-FAST-/162608743758?epid=22005632944&hash=item25dc3c854e:g:itYAAOSw8GtZP5Q2

 

$100 - ASRock Rack C226M WS LGA1150/ Intel C226/ DDR3/ SATA3&USB3.0/ M.2/ A&2GbE/ ATX
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASRock-Rack-C226M-WS-LGA1150-Intel-C226-DDR3-SATA3-USB3-0-M-2-A-2GbE-ATX-/232440444493?hash=item361e87b64d:g:4ekAAOSwTfhZiiCS

 

$66 / $132 - 16GB / 32 GB ECC
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820239288&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Memory+(Desktop+Memory)-_-N82E16820239288&gclid=Cj0KCQjwiLDMBRDFARIsACNmiX-Ba81XAtr4KguqlQ0Iwug_H1AXqZ33ash4Nr_6jYLXeZxOILExkDAaAmoKEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Happy hunting!

[bsm2k1]

Thanks very much I shall definately have a look and see if I can grab a bargain!

 

A few things I'm not sure if I need to look out for or not. I've seen IPMI mentioned - do I need to look out for a motherboard with that? If I understand this correctly it means I can setup the OS etc without a keyboard/monitor? If so that would be pretty useful for my setup. Also I've read advice on making your you get an Intel NIC - is that still correct?
Generally any other specific features I should be aware of to look out for?

[tdallen]

IPMI is great if you run your server headless.  You were talking about gaming, though, so I'm not sure if it would have the same value for you?  While people successfully run Realtek or other brand LAN chipsets, there have occasionally  been issues with them and Intel is a much safer bet.

 

Gaming would require a dedicated video card, so you need to plan out your PCIex slots re: video controllers and SATA controllers if you go that route.

[SSD]

IPMI is one of those features you never miss until you've had it! An even after having it, I still want to be able to stand next to my server as I power it up and listen while I am watching the POST.  All in all, IPMI is not a deal breaker for me.

 

I did find a $100 motherboard that has everything else. Including 3 PCIe slots - 2 x8 and an x4 (or x16 and an x4). 2 LAN ports. I actually like this MB quite a lot.

 

Suggest you look quickly at the eBay links. They'll expire quickly, if not already.

[bsm2k1]

1 hour ago, tdallen said:

IPMI is great if you run your server headless.  You were talking about gaming, though, so I'm not sure if it would have the same value for you?  While people successfully run Realtek or other brand LAN chipsets, there have occasionally  been issues with them and Intel is a much safer bet.

 

I've been thinking about this a lot. I think I've probably been caught up with the idea of "new shiny things" rather than what I actually need
Assessing the situation again, realistically I should stick to my original goal: file server and media downloader. If possible I would like to stick to mini itx/micro atx but not sure how realistic that is. I guess building in the ability to switch out the processor and add a graphics card and raid card could be useful down the road if I do want to go that route one day though. I guess I would need 2 expansion slots - a x8 and a x16 is that right? May never need it, but having the expansion option might be nice.

 

21 minutes ago, bjp999 said:

IPMI is one of those features you never miss until you've had it! An even after having it, I still want to be able to stand next to my server as I power it up and listen while I am watching the POST.  All in all, IPMI is not a deal breaker for me.

 

I dont easily have a keyboard and monitor accessible so having it be completely headless would be a really useful feature to me. Struggling to find a suitable new motherboard with the right amount of slots/ports etc though.

 

28 minutes ago, bjp999 said:

Suggest you look quickly at the eBay links. They'll expire quickly, if not already.

 

I'm in the UK so unfortunately shipping costs pretty much rule those out for me

[CHBMB]

Here are some drive cages in the UK, I use them and like them, pretty reasonably priced compared to others. 

 

https://www.xcase.co.uk/collections/storage-caddy/products/bpn-de350ss-trayless-3x-5-25-to-5x-3-5-sas-sata-6-gbps-hdd-hot-swap-rack

[tdallen]

2 hours ago, bsm2k1 said:

I guess I would need 2 expansion slots - a x8 and a x16 is that right? May never need it, but having the expansion option might be nice.

Gaming on unRAID would require both a CPU and motherboard that support IOMMU/VT-d for hardware pass-through, an x16 slot for a video card, and physical access to your server with attached keyboard and monitor.  A good SATA controller just needs an x8 slot.  Standard mini-ITX boards only have a single PCIex slot.  There are extended mini-ITX boards with two slots but they are rare and only fit in certain mini-ITX cases.  If you definitely want both an x8 and x16 slot you'll have the most luck with micro-ATX.

 

Personal opinion follows!  I think unRAID's support for VMs is great, but personally I have no interest in gaming on my unRAID server.  Mine will be headless, in a closet, with a light-weight VM or two but with a goal of rock solid stability - and my next hardware update will include IPMI.  To each their own, though.

[SSD]

I am not interested in gaming. But when I am using my computer, I just want me, my mouse and keyboard, and a large display. I don't want a tiny laptop screen. I don't want a noisy computer in the corner. 

 

I also want very fast access to my array.

 

A pass through VM gives me all of that. The computer in my study is gone. My array access is very fast. And I do it all using my unRAID server which is running 24x7 anyway. Now all of my files are on my array.

 

Regarding GPU - I think PCIe 3.x at x8 is fast enough, even for non-competitive gaming.

 

Look here, and scroll down until you see the game benchmarks with x16 vs x8 comparison. It's rounding error!

 

x8 vs x16 BENCHMARKS

 

Here is an example from that site:

 

[SSD]

2 hours ago, CHBMB said:

Here are some drive cages in the UK, I use them and like them, pretty reasonably priced compared to others. 

 

https://www.xcase.co.uk/collections/storage-caddy/products/bpn-de350ss-trayless-3x-5-25-to-5x-3-5-sas-sata-6-gbps-hdd-hot-swap-rack

 

They look very nice! Trayless. Silverstone makes a trayless unit that looks similar to that one.

[SSD]

5 hours ago, bsm2k1 said:

I'm in the UK so unfortunately shipping costs pretty much rule those out for me

 

Forgot about that.

 

Fortunately all the research didn't go to waste. I bought the motherboard for myself.

 

It upgrades my third PCIe slot from x1 to x4. Will give my RAID0 parity a boost, and give me a few more drive slots I need. I already have a bigger Areca controller I can use to replace the 2-port ARC-1200, so just need to move my CPU and RAM over and I should be good to go. I do lose IPMI. Oh well.

[bsm2k1]

20 hours ago, CHBMB said:

Here are some drive cages in the UK, I use them and like them, pretty reasonably priced compared to others. 

 

https://www.xcase.co.uk/collections/storage-caddy/products/bpn-de350ss-trayless-3x-5-25-to-5x-3-5-sas-sata-6-gbps-hdd-hot-swap-rack

 

Awesome thanks very much! I have been struggling to find any but that looks quite promising.

 

19 hours ago, tdallen said:

Personal opinion follows!  I think unRAID's support for VMs is great, but personally I have no interest in gaming on my unRAID server.  Mine will be headless, in a closet, with a light-weight VM or two but with a goal of rock solid stability - and my next hardware update will include IPMI.  To each their own, though.

 

Yeah thats kind of where I'm leaning towards at the moment. However my thought was if I could get the option to add extra things/boost performance/storage at a later date it might be a good idea to build that in.

 

I've struggled to find a mini itx motherboard that fits the bill, but have found what I think is a good micro atx fit - http://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=E3C236D4U#Specifications

Does that look suitable for both a simple server for now, but also gives me the option to expand at a later date? If I could find a mini itx with 8 sata ports plus 1 x16 port that would work too, as I'll probably never need 8 ports.

 

18 hours ago, bjp999 said:

I am not interested in gaming. But when I am using my computer, I just want me, my mouse and keyboard, and a large display. I don't want a tiny laptop screen. I don't want a noisy computer in the corner. 

 

I definately understand that too. However I have a seperate Mac for work (web developer) so I'm probably covered there. Though the ability to use it like you mentioned in the future may become useful at some point.

 

17 hours ago, bjp999 said:

Fortunately all the research didn't go to waste. I bought the motherboard for myself.

 

Nice purchase and glad I didn't waste your time Really appreciate everyone's assistance.

[bsm2k1]

If anyone is interested I found this fairly new SIlverstone case https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MQF4GID
Based on the mini itx version discussed earlier. Looks like a really good case on the face of it...

[SSD]

In the US there is a case called the DS380 that gets very very poor marks for cooling. Suggest you compare and confirm the CS380 does not have the same design flaw.

 

But if it cools well, looks like an excellent choice!

 

Look here:

 

 

[tdallen]

17 hours ago, bsm2k1 said:

Does that look suitable for both a simple server for now, but also gives me the option to expand at a later date? If I could find a mini itx with 8 sata ports plus 1 x16 port that would work too, as I'll probably never need 8 ports.

The first motherboard I linked above, the ASRock C236 WSI is exactly that.  No IPMI, but otherwise very nice.  See if you can find it where you are... 

[jsdoc3]

Not sure if you still need our advice at this point, but in case others are going down what I think is probably a very classic new user UnRaid decision tree (do I stay with small budget file server hardware or do I scale up to leverage VM's etc).   

 

Wanted to throw in my experience / advice - the target audience being a typical NOOB home user probably just getting into the idea of running a server / running a NAS and fiddling with VM's and using Docker, etc.  Obviously you IT pros will pick this apart, but of course you are also talking about very different use cases and learning curves, so you guys just pass this post on by....     I'm kind of writing a book here, but just one that I wish I'd had for myself.   

 

OPTION ONE:

If you are a NOOB and primarily just learning UnRaid and mostly need a NAS to backup files that you probably aren't properly backing up now, etc, then first off - GOOD CHOICE.   But second, your BIG decision BY FAR is to decide if you are going to want to in the near future run VMs that play games or do alot of video encoding (generally this means Windows and a nice newer Video card to passthru for Games of course, and just faster/multicore CPUs for hardcore video encoding tasks -- and note I'm saying video ENCODING not transcoding - IE converting video into h.264 / h.265 etc, not just playing back recorded video (transcoding, which even your mobile phone is great at these days).    This is by far the big decision point you need to make first, because that's really the only reason you need to consider a bleeding edge CPU / motherboard vs. pretty much any old decent used hardware -- and the advice I wish I'd heeded when I first forayed into UnRaid since I overbought and wasted money.   

 

So if this applies to you, then this is the most important paragraph of advice you'll get --  just stop right here, take a breath, be pragmatic, and ponder this until you are done deciding and be comfortable with your decision.   In terms of both cost and choices of motherboards / CPUs, this is simply THE big decision.   UNLESS you are definitely wanting to exploit VMs right away, you should probably consider going down the track of a "dirt cheap" build and then build up your experience with using the plugins and dockers and learning to use and navigate a NAS and then plan for your big upgrade to VM centric hardware down the road.   By then things like used Ryzen hardware will be available and UnRaid will be good to go for that and you'll get incredible value compared to new gear available right now and get to have your cake and eat it too considering a great multicore NAS machine AND a crazy-fast rig for VMs and gaming.   Kind of like waiting a couple of years to buy the hot new car you want right now and saving huge $$ for what effectively is still new gear.   With a bargain build, more often than not you'll fall in love with it in this new role and find it a great idea to keep this old hardware for a backup server (for instance the backup of the backup of your really REALLY important data, etc.).   Or hand it down to the kids or Dad, etc.   After all, you were smart and kept this on a tight budget ! 

 

By the way, if it's a good file server rig now, it will still be a great file server rig for as long as it lives, even 5+ years from now - basically until 10GB ethernet is baked into the new motherboards and Routers at a reasonable price (still gonna be a few years).   And also it's very hard to imagine you can't find a PC from a friend who uses only Windows where they have something unusable to them "slow as a dog" for windows that would be absolutely great for UnRaid File server duties.   IE maybe FREE !!.   Basically if it's built after 2010 or so and has lots of SATA ports and 4GB+ RAM, it's a good file server candidate - probably a great candidate.

 

So If you think way of thinking  suits you -- or you know you just want a home file server that can run some docker apps (like your PVR / TiVO mentions above) and maybe serve a little video, you are most likely good to go with almost any 2010+ used hardware you can find.  Or even earlier if you're cautious (kind of that limit of return on age depreciation value vs. risk of aging electronics...).  Before 2010 or so, motherboards capacitors and power controllers were still kind of suspect in cheaper gear, so quality control value newer gear is worth consideration for NAS purposes.   You might also consider trying to get something that has USB 3.0 on it so you can also use that for external drive connection (using the UnRaid plugin UNASSIGNED DEVICES) and enjoy the 10x speed advantage that gives over USB 2 and the ability to do superquick transfers on / off of the NAS or the great idea of having a drive that you rotate OFF SITE with critical data to survive the big bad wolf blowing your house down, etc.   So do not be afraid to go back a few generations in terms of Xeon / i3 / i5 / i7 CPUs (I'd recommend that over any new dual core CPU such as Pentium / Celeron - I dislike that idea as most likely still overspending for no good reason).   The exception might be a chance to get a nicer motherboard in the deal and an option to easily upgrade the CPU later - that could be another good beginner strategy.   But I wouldn't "Aim" for a Pentium or Celeron processor myself - they often still run hot and yet don't offer much if any VM expansion options -- see next paragraph.       

 

Actually personally if you're JUST file serving, for cost and low power consumption reasons, I'd recommend looking at an ATOM based server board (CPU+MBoard generally come together for good package cost with a top quality Intel onboard NIC)) and will still have a slot for a SATA card if you need more drive ports later and most have a monitor port for easy initial setup like accessing and upgrading and properly configuring the BIOS etc.   You can get TDP's down in the 20 watt range or lower.   My home built router / firewall is an Atom server board (has never been rebooted in >2 years and pulls about 15 watts, handles every packet of my UnRaid's LAN traffic at the max of the Gigabit capacity and rarely breaks >5% CPU use).   And of course server boards are designed to run constantly for years and years.  +1 on investing in good quality locking SATA cables (like what they use in server rooms), simple and cheap insurance.    Actually even a mini-ATX form factor (the really tiny ones) that ATOM boards often come in still usually has a PCIe port so you could add a SATA card and have a multi-drive rig.   Additionally, often ATOMs can be passively cooled (ie silent) and so can be housed right on / under your desk if that's convenient.   

 

A point to underline several times is that even with an ATOM board, you'll still barely make the CPU break a sweat regardless of how much file transferring you do.  The only disadvantage of an Atom is that you won't generally have the VT-d / VT-x functionality required for UnRaid to do VM's, so you're committing to a NAS / Docker machine (which is still great and very flexible for HTPC purposes).   The general point here is the CPU is usually the first thing you look at in a system build, but for a NAS the CPU is almost never going to come into play as a rate limiter for file server duties (or most docker utilities which are mostly linux based / low overhead (efficient) programs that benefit alot more from more memory or maybe more cores than they do from more CPU speed).    4GB is fine for basic file server duties, agree probably go for 8+GB if you plan to use alot of docker apps, etc.   Below 4GB is possible, but buyer beware...  Also be cautious of old systems with "hot" CPU's that are probably burning thru several times as much electricity (look for TDP specs on the CPU, good is below 75, great is below 40).  That can really add up if your electric rates are high and many folks forget this part.   Can literally pay for itself in a few months !   If you want suggestions for max price/performance, look at Xeon L5640 CPUs (6 core, overclockable, DIRT cheap, and TDP 60watt).   Look online for old used microservers from Data centers and businesses that are routinely upgrading older equipment.   There are some steals out there.   You could even consider ECC ram for these if motherboard supports, meaning a little more data corruption protection for your priceless data.   DDR3 ECC Ram is also now quite cheap.

 

So to summarize, if you decide you perhaps don't want to have the goal of an "all in one" machine with multiple (high performance) VMs, then the average home user should not be one bit afraid to intentionally skimp on hardware (motherboard/CPU), you can get some awesome deals out there in the used market.   Maybe put a little bit more into a case with more drive bays or that nice case with hot swap bays, easy to do for just a little more $ and continue to smile with how smart a decision that was 5 years from now when you've not put a single penny into it.   A mini-ATX board is probably a good value if you do buy something newer, esp. in the home enthusiast category.  I'd suggest one with onboard video, or as described above a server board with the IMPI interface for GUI based headless management just to make setting it up / working on it / debugging it alot more painless (unless you're comfy with Linux command line and SSH'ing into machines, etc.).   Unless you plan to have gobs of drives, even with a micro-atx board you can always add a PCIe SATA card later - the one recommended above in the thread is a great idea (don't skimp on the SATA card and don't forget you DON'T need/want a RAID card, you can get the JBOD (just a bunch of disks) models and save money.    

 

OPTION TWO

So you're thinking you'd have uses for VM's in the nearer future and/or have budget to "build ahead" for futureproofing, then this is for you -- this can range from probably the most common theme of dreaming about having your gaming rig and your NAS be in one box right under your desk to save space.   So in this case, I'd start with two big tenets -- spend more for QUIET (with good cooling), and consider the biggest motherboard and case you can afford for expansion capabilities (IE multiple video cards, extra SATA / USB ports, etc.) because you'll be slicing these resources up between VM's if you are wanting to run them live simultaneously.   And of course still need plenty of drive space.   Of note, I really like the BE QUIET case line http://www.bequiet.com/en/case as a budget line that's still very decent build quality and pretty inexpensive, and truly sound insulated in a way that works yet still offers great airflow.   To whit, I have a dual CPU E5-2670 Xeon server board + video card with fan right under my desk as my current UnRaid rig and have to put my ear next to it to hear anything.   >6 fans inside too.   Stuffed full of drives that stay <40degrees C

 

If you think you'll be OK with not running the VM right away while you learn the unRaid system but like futureproofing in your purchase, then I'd be alot bolder about getting the great price / performance value of a Ryzen build right now (1700 seems very appealing), as you could survive on RDP / Splashtop type of connection into the VM (IE getting around the shaky support for hardware passthru) for now until the UnRaid folks have time to work out the kinks and possibly take a kernel update or two from Linux, etc.   Other users using the beta versions of current UnRaid are reporting the Ryzen support is definitely getting there.   If you want bullet proof VM with bare metal passthru that works right out of the box today, then probably should stick with Intel at the moment.

 

For VMs of course you want a multicore CPU (suports VTx VTd) and of course a motherboard that supports that too.   However I'd focus more on high RAM than on high CPU thread count unless you're really planning to go nuts with the number of VM's.    VM's that are active lay claim to the CPU threads / Memory resources they're assigned (a distinct difference vs. Dockers which all get to share all the cores and RAM).   Additionally, you want a motherboard that has more of the things like high count of USB ports, onboard sound, etc (maybe 3.1 / thunderbolt even) and of course with as many PCIe slots / lanes as possible.   This can be an advantage of a dual CPU server board (6+    8 or 16 lane PCIe slots, etc) and of course LOTS of RAM slots.   A semi-recent dual CPU Xeon board can be a great idea here if you want multiple GPU support, lots of CPU threads and lots of RAM.    The E5-2670 8 core Xeon CPU's are still a fairly good deal due to a supply/demand fluke of Facebook liquidating a huge volume all at once (if you can find the motherboards...) and newer faster options are becoming possible at reasonable cost as well for last generation Xeons or i7's.   2-3 year old server farm liquidation seems to be a great place to look for UnRaid gear, particularly for large volume hot swappable drive gear, esp. if you don't mind it being a little ugly (and maybe a little loud).      

 

OPTION THREE - do Both

In the end, I'm only now growing into the ability of my current ridiculous 32-core high CPUmark build with 64GB ECC RAM -- and meanwhile wound up building another UnRaid low end rig that hums along quietly sipping power for "regular" NAS duty with a few dockers (like for Crashplan, video playback (Plex / Emby etc.) and things like VPN server, web server, etc. that you might run as a home user.   For NOOBS working with VM's can amount to Hacking, so might be smarter to keep the NAS role on another machine.   The reality is that my initial high end purchase was not that great of an investment as I could spend same money now and get an insane Threadripper or i9 / Xeon build, etc.   Or could have gotten this same build at lower cost (one that I'll never make break a sweat most likely no matter how hard I try).   Short of high end video encoding, it's really hard to stress these types of machines in a home user environment.   For NAS, it's actually very hard to underbuild in terms of any modern CPU.   A little more caution needed with choice of motherboard, but hard to go wrong if it's got adequate onboard SATA ports for your needs and room for 4 (preferrably 8+) GB RAM  

 

Hardware recommendations:

 

Agree with the recommendation for ASRock / ASUS boards home user boards, Supermicro boards of all flavors .  And server quality SATA cards as mentioned by other posters, which are cheap on eBay.  

 

For good midrange minimal compromise builds:  Consider Used microserver equipment (HP Proliant, Supermicro based equipment, Dell equivalents etc. on Ebay from Server end-of-lease routine replacements like the E5-2670 Xeons that can occasionally amount to giveaway prices due to sudden upgrade decisions by the big server farm dependent giant companies.  Lots of Ebay sellers that are in the liquidation business for this type of stuff, so it's easy for them to offer replacement for DOA equipment (which is rare in the server equipment market anyway).   DDR3 RAM based rigs will be cheaper if you want large amts of RAM.  Hard to find the motherboards (or $$ if you do) so look for complete builds rather than buying the components, or at least ensure you have all you need before buying.   

 

For Dirt cheap low power NAS builds:  look for Xeon L5640 CPU based rigs (hex core hyperthreaded with virtualization, cheap DDR3 Ram, and <60 watt TDP - almost doesn't need air cooling when idling).   Can get the CPU's almost for free, but hard to source the boards unless you get it in an old system build.   Dell / HP microservers are prime candidates.  Or the X8 series Supermicro boards etc with the LGA 1366 sockets

 

for newer / faster and more future proof Xeon builds that also is high CPU frequency (for gaming), agree that the E3-1270v3 and similar is a great idea (though the idea of Threadripper builds could get really exciting in the near future, as could the price war on newer Xeons that may ensue later this year)

 

For micro or basic NAS builds - look at ATOM boards, particularly NAS centric server boards like this Supermicro line, gain on your investment over time with power savings / easier cooling

https://www.supermicro.com/products/nfo/atom.cfm

or older models for cheaper options:  

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=supermicro+atom

 

Here's what I use as my firewall / router:  Can probably ebay that for alot cheaper as it's aging.   Nice that you can use RAM you steal from an old laptop, etc.   Look at picoPSU power supplies if you really want a micro build.   

https://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-Motherboard-X7SPE-H-D525-Atom-PCI-Express/dp/B0058A0MIM/ref=sr_1_19?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1502569784&sr=1-19&keywords=supermicro+atom+sodimm

 

Or contradicting myself and including Celeron / Pentium range (who knew it was this cheap??) here's a sub$100 MB/CPU combo for NAS duty.   Add a case and RAM you have lying around and a picoPSU power supply (also on Amazon) and Voilla.   Just add a SATA card when it's time to expand the drive array

 

https://www.amazon.com/ASRock-Motherboard-Combo-Motherboards-J3455B-ITX/dp/B01M7OUO62/ref=pd_cp_147_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=3CW32GPYXZTZGFHY7AN9

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JO1DIIM/ref=psdc_1048424_t2_B0038GVR82

 

 

Man I did write a book - hope it helps posters like BSM2K1 - it is meant to be advice I would go back and give myself....

 

Joe

Edited August 14, 2017 by jsdoc3

[bsm2k1]

19 hours ago, tdallen said:

The first motherboard I linked above, the ASRock C236 WSI is exactly that.  No IPMI, but otherwise very nice.  See if you can find it where you are... 

 

Sorry missed that - it does indead look a very nice board. I can get it for around £180 by the look of it, so that does look quite an attractive option if I decide to go with mini ITX.

 

11 hours ago, jsdoc3 said:

Man I did write a book - hope it helps posters like BSM2K1 - it is meant to be advice I would go back and give myself....

 

Joe - thanks SO much! I cant tell you how helpful that was. I've read through a few times now and it gives me a good understanding of my options.
I have a few questions of my own that will help me decide on a path to take.

 

Motherboard/CPU

You are right this is what I'm struggling with the most. As I'm new to Unraid how does it work in terms of if I bought some 2nd hand more budget motherboard/CPU parts if I want to upgrade in a few years? Do I have to set everything up from scratch if I decide to upgrade, or can I add the hard drives to a new MB/CPU without going through the setup again?

This will influence my decision a lot as I dont want to be going through setups and considering new parts again frequently if its going to be tricky

The only thing I know I want to get away from is an ATOM build as I currently already have one, and its starting to struggle (this might be because of using WHS2011 though).

I like your suggestion of going with a Ryzen build if I was going with new hardware, as I wont need a Windows VM (if I went that route) for a year or so (to replace our aging iMac) and they seem great value for performance.

 

Case

Struggling with this a bit too. I'm leaning towards micro ATX but not 100% sure. I've found a case that has 6 x 5.25" drive bays: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sharkoon-Rebel9-Pro-Economy-Midi-Tower/dp/B0036226FQ (or this but I cant find the basic one anywhere: https://www.sharkoon.com/product/1678/T9Val#desc).

Found it for £46 which I thought was pretty good, but reviews are a bit sparse. It does mean I could use 2 of these and its still fairly compact: https://www.xcase.co.uk/collections/storage-caddy/products/bpn-de350ss-trayless-3x-5-25-to-5x-3-5-sas-sata-6-gbps-hdd-hot-swap-rack (would start with the 1 but have room for expansion).

 

This is also very appealing but I cant find any reviews which worries me a little: http://silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=709&area=en

 

I'm still digesting your reply so might reply again, but thank you!

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by bsm2k1